Norm Bully Interview notes
	Norm Bully  Aug 8, 1974 TAPE ONE SIDE ONE long-time local flint, family worked buick from 1907 Father french canadian socialist, active organizer knew Norman Thomas HABITUS SOCIALISM  RETURN TO active in dem party, delegate al family catholic, except me, atheist what I think dad thought 311 dad had 3rd grade education developed tuaght himself, became supervisor helped open up new plants, developed skils on the job. Dad had natural curiosity, great repsect for education, he taught himself, dug up info from others, asked questions learnd to use metric system, micrometers, all the tools good mechanic dad set up garage, he just learned
	437  drinking was base for organizing--in bars 475  ethnicity and bars poles in the north souherers on west side little missori we called it located on kersely and cort down by the river role of church polacks and frogs  no hostility 597 and wh had the plloacks, the humkies, and the wops ind geography WASPS asnyone not catholic was a foregner 1050
	on leadership STATUS CONSCOUSNESS OF PROTESTANTS VS. RICH-POOR OF E. EUR CATHOLIC PEASANTS 1145 they had a broader understadnig of social issues slave and master "You didn't see a Syrian who was jealous of another syrian because he had a better car, or had a newer house . . .   but Engish and Scots re. Communists 1236 supplied lieadership, knoew what they were doing, others were led (even NB) ---------------------------------------- PF: running down each of the plants in flint, social comp NB: rundown of plants  1325 Fish 1 at south end of flint; buick at north chevy & fish 2 transmission where i ws working at time about 30 buick buildings ethnic breakdown, comments on skilled SIDE TWO 190   NIETZSCHE UBERMENSCH ethnic stuff 1590 PF: may be a common outlook & culture tht informs their outlook {pf on habitus} NB: Fine just gives you facts, but you dont understnad what happened 1759 CP  1780  on John Anderson  Ganley  BILDUNG  REUTHERS, SILVER GOOD OLD SOCALIST BUDDY 1934 I was pres of young socialist club ON SP  1975
	PF ON LEFT RIGHT SPLIT CP & SP backed off from Trots, on hitler stalin pact Trots were outsdiers, CP accepted during the war; after cp had to run ON CP IN PLANTS  2325 NEVER HAD MORE THAN 30 CP MEMBERS IN BUICK After war hungarians, etc. became american, anti commie, even if cp before many of cp deserted labor movement, became supervisers PF: 1943 Addes at convention Buick voted left--damn right TAPE 2   DUPLICATE!!!!!  HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?
	TELEPHONE 12-3-75 SIDE ONE buick out because of fishcer most leaders were catholics geiger, ryan fitzgerald, McGill all catholic had common bond of being catholic.  they were the real active in the plant organizers.  this was city wide, close with other cathlic; whole group of catholic activists, 1936-7 most of em came about 35 36 most were ed geiger, assembly line; ohnny mcgill, soutern illl coal fields, auto driver drove cars off line; fitzgerall and ryan worked in crankshaft production machineoperators; swanson, hawk, milton came out of crankshaft dept, not all cathoic, but many were, all non-skilled guys.  Had some skilled guys out of tool room almost everything was non-skilled there was a left wing presence, came from outisde the plant, were organiers who came in here, like Mortimer, genski . . . most of the leadeship that came out of the shop wre anti-communist 184 they didnt realize it at the time because a lot of them didnt know what was going on at the time, they werent that sophisticated; they accepted all kinds of leadership, anything . .  as soon as they understood . . they wre anti everything, anti radical they were pretty militant themselves aquite a few socialists played a role in the plant; SP none of top ranked leadeship were soclaist (geiger, ryan etc) NB was committeemen Kermit Johnson inside chevy 4, not as big a leader as his wife was jimmy whidmark and bruce widmar, bobby o'dowd they were CP, tried to recruit Bully into CP CP better orgaized than SP, latter not organized in the same manner.  nobody came in who was SP; they were already there.  349
	the CP sent people in, they came with the Genskis Reuther came in same as Genski frm outside SP werent tht closely organized and didnt wrk that closely together.  They wre a social miliue just like the catholics were 50 SP in Flint; Buick 15-20 good ones who were active none from southern Ill; most were foreign born (mostly hungarian french canadian; hunarians real activde and dedicated but not leaders They were solid rank and file, but they could mobilize the rest of the rank and file 500 5 or 6 SP local native american SP not the organizers, sort of a backbone group, stiffened up things SP were part of native american radical tradition, depression realted SP became more active, never was a united identifiable, very loosely not organized as well as the Masons.  Masons was oneof the best organized groups we ever had, and still is; usally they were with mangement, an obstacle to unionists not too many CP in buick before 36-7; native americans didnt have the background, the schooling, the teaching, it ws just a belief, not leaders no real leaders in Buick CP O'Dowd and Widmark came into UAW as soon as labor started to organized, came in 34-36, 37 We had been messing around with organization from 1929 on . . . 1934 was aborted by AFL.  these guys were all moving in guys coming in from the outside--probably 30 Communists--all of them were native american, none foreign born.  a lot were second generation.  A lot were scots irish, engihish, sweidish--several from CCNY most of em had beter than average education, but only one or two had degrees.  Most of them had some eduation above high school, but not gotten degree.  they were never happy with their lot in life, to little and to much  785
	I give them (CP) credit for most of the organzing  that was done--these colonizers---were instrumental in helping to build the union--hell uv a good job They practically operated the union for the first year and a halftwo years.  They gae the leadership.  When we got our foot in the door and got some experence, we found out that we ran into some basic diffrerences in philosophy.  Still solidarity, then after a couple of years, we begin to kind of shove them out.  Most of the people in the plant didn't accept them once they became identified as commies, and people started backing away from them. 855 Then we already had the union organizede and we developed some of our own leaders  . . . . 1414 on CP stalin-hitler pact; CP alienated most of their frends re war in europe Bud Simons quit, went to work for UMW dist 50!!!   1533 CP alien force in Flint PF: Simons, Moore & Devitt: Irene Marinovich  Ganley NY pol element in CP; Anderson and Irene deper roots in labor movement  PF on Irene vs. NY Bud Simons, Johnson something like Irene Trots strnger than CP--25 CP, 25 Trots we had some trots in Buick PF: compare trots and CP: everybody in plant lumped them together at one time the commies gave us effective leadership, the trots were more distruptive, came in a little later.  by that time I was tryng to use one against the other, late thirtes eraly forties-jus about 40 SP unable to recruit new members SP were there working CP & Trots leaders and outsiders some of the commies were home grown, auto ind people Simons probly scotch irish or english; O'Dowd irish protestant eng irish scots scand  home grown commies trots more eastern europe and jewish young students
	TELEPHONE 12-3-75 SIDE TWO I REF IRWIN BAUER A LOT re. Larry Jones (associated with trots) & Bill Genski Bully: I didnt like the social order, etc.  Pretty defininte radicalism, everyone was unhapy and unsatisfied We had a champion (FDR) it was not capitalism we were after, it was a voice, participate, wanted to be in have a voice I remember FDR and Ma Perkins secy of labor--what a big deal that was for us.  Finally we had somebody inthe cabinet on our side. PF: you mean Perkins? NB: yeah PF: gettng perkins in there really had an impact on the shop floor? NB: it sure did, ma perkins ws ours, we thought. 160  more!!! when they started attacking FDR FDR was more than a man, he ws the whole damn thing.  he ws part and parcel of the whole indutrial revolution.  When you started criticizing him, boy you ran into trouble. PF: NB: I'll tell you what.  in the plant God was second, Roosevelt ws first. . .  god second, and then come John l lewis. then Homer Martin  . . . Anybody that attacked roosevelt really got in trouble.  thats where father coughlin got in trouble, thats were all these guys got in trouble NB: ameican worker solidly for our typoe of govt, for capitalis.  the thing that symbolized evel to us ws the stock market tremendous feeling of accomplishment and hope not until FDR got elcted was he thought of as champion talks about impact of first 100 days we didnt identifiy as uaw , but as cio (unclear) rembmer john Dillon talks about Paul Silver Emil still has rep of being real rank and filer